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Microsoft Still Thinks Linux is a Cancer.

f33dm3bits

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What's ironic is there still hasn't been a mass exodus from Windows despite how it keeps going downhill. Maybe we need to create a grassroots marketing campaign to get enough people away from Windows.
That's not going to happen because most of the population will stick to what they know and since Windows is still installed by default on almost every sold pc it will remain that way.
 


CrazedNerd

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While that would make sense from a Linux user standpoint, we only make up a small percentage of the desktop market. Because most of the population are sheep, they'll stick with Windows because it's common and familiar, and then get a (potentially) locked-down pc that Microshit is conditioning them to buy. What's ironic is there still hasn't been a mass exodus from Windows despite how it keeps going downhill. Maybe we need to create a grassroots marketing campaign to get enough people away from Windows.
My intention is to make free utilitarian software, stuff that makes pirating easier, and other simple/useful programs...I also eventually want to make some games that are both free and put dollars in my pocket.
 
OP
bob466

bob466

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At the end of the day...the Linux community will prevail as they always do.
m1212.gif


What's that quote from Star Wars...The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
t2007.gif
 

CrazedNerd

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At the end of the day...the Linux community will prevail as they always do.
m1212.gif


What's that quote from Star Wars...The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
t2007.gif
"The harder they come, the harder they fall", trying to control everything is a bad idea.
 

f33dm3bits

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An interesting read.
Also I would think there should be an option in your uefi to disable it, just like you can currently disable secure boot. It's probably going to be a time before they actually enforce since uefi isn't being enforced yet since you can still turn that off in your uefi. By the time they enforce it I would think the Opensource community will have thought of a solution.
Also I think the Youtube linked of the OP is kind of blowing this all up, from the article I linked before.
"AMD Ryzen 6000 Series processors support Linux. AMD has closely collaborated with Canonical (Ubuntu) and Red Hat to certify and optimize OEM designs with their operating systems," she said.
If AMD is working towards a solution with Canonical and Red Hat I'm sure those same two companies will be doing that with Intel as well. Lastly people always hate change and I'm sure there will be a solution by the time it's actually enforced, keep in my secure boot is not even being enforced and it was introduced I think 10 years ago or so.
 

kibasnowpaw

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Also I think the Youtube linked of the OP is kind of blowing this all up, from the article I linked before.

If AMD is working towards a solution with Canonical and Red Hat I'm sure those same two companies will be doing that with Intel as well. Lastly people always hate change and I'm sure there will be a solution by the time it's actually enforced, keep in my secure boot is not even being enforced and it was introduced I think 10 years ago or so.
i also think this is blowing up,

"So I need to build another computer to support Windows 11. I was about to buy an Asus Pro WS WRX80E -- Sage SE and then Threadripper PRO 2 is released and only available in a prebuilt -- something I do not want.
But, the real problem is something else and that is the development of a new security device by Microsoft called PLUTON and it is something like a TPM built directly into the CPU and the new Threadripper Pro's do not have that, the only chips that will have that at the moment are AMD 6000 chips."
so its nothing new and as long you can turn it off i can't see a problem with it.
 

wizardfromoz

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eBuzz Central video (from #1) – references

at 1:48

The video author does not show the site’s header but I have identified it as being this one, from ghacks.net

https://www.ghacks.net/2022/08/13/rufus-microsoft-is-blocking-windows-iso-downloads/

… and as you can see, it was written 13 August, updated 14 August.

I have no issue with that, but the dates are worth noting.

At 2:48

The video author again, here, does not show the site’s header but I have identified it as being this one, from Bleeping Computer

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...tloaders-enabling-windows-secure-boot-bypass/

Again, I have no issue with that, but the dates are worth noting.


At 4:10

For the third time, the video author does not show the site’s header but I have identified it as being this one, from Kitguru.net

https://www.kitguru.net/components/...-chips-with-microsoft-pluton-wont-boot-linux/

This one, however, is one that concerns me, in that it is no longer current or accurate. I’ll tell you why.

The second paragraph states

Matthew Garret (via Phoronix), a Linux security specialist, wanted to analyse the implementation of the Microsoft Pluton on the Ryzen Pro 6860Z Zen3+ processor. Ultimately, this didn't go very well, as he couldn't get a Linux install to complete.

I clicked the link on Phoronix and it takes you to the source article at

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Lenovo-Pluton-Windows-Default


Written on 8 July by Michael Larabel, of Phoronix, I have no issue with the content as it is referenced by the author of the video.

BUT (and Wizard’s butt is usually not far behind)

Towards the bottom, and at the bottom are two (2) important updates, which the video author does not reference, and he may not have seen them, but should before he published.

Update 1 has, from AMD itself

Update (11 July): AMD has reached out with their comment on the matter:
AMD supports Ryzen PRO 6000 processors with Linux, including partnering with select Linux distribution vendors on certifications for OEM products. The pluton security co-processor built into our Ryzen 6000 processors does not prohibit platforms from running Linux. Some OEM systems initially shipped with Windows may need to reconfigure their systems to boot Linux. To enable booting Linux on a platform that was shipped with Windows, a user can either:

1. Enable the Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA in the UEFI secure boot database.

2. Disable UEFI secure boot

Some OEMs have provided guidance for their specific platforms. A document from Lenovo is posted here.


Update 2 has

Update (11 July): AMD has reached out with their comment on the matter:
AMD supports Ryzen PRO 6000 processors with Linux, including partnering with select Linux distribution vendors on certifications for OEM products. The pluton security co-processor built into our Ryzen 6000 processors does not prohibit platforms from running Linux. Some OEM systems initially shipped with Windows may need to reconfigure their systems to boot Linux. To enable booting Linux on a platform that was shipped with Windows, a user can either:

1. Enable the Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA in the UEFI secure boot database.

2. Disable UEFI secure boot

Some OEMs have provided guidance for their specific platforms. A document from Lenovo is posted here.

If you click the last, linked word, above you will be taken here

https://www.phoronix.com/review/rembrandt-linux-boot

where on 15 July, a week after the original article that the video author refers to, Michael Larabel says, in part

Indeed when it came to trying to boot an Ubuntu 22.04 LTS live image on the ThinkPad X13 Gen3, it failed. From the boot menu selection screen selecting the USB drive with the official Ubuntu 22.04 LTS, it failed and simply returned to the boot menu screen without any messages. This is a bad user experience and doesn't inform the user about the 3rd party certificate being disabled or any other messaging around the problem - it just fails.

But further on, he says

But fortunately from the Lenovo BIOS the 3rd party UEFI CA can be easily enabled. Simply hit enter at boot to interrupt the boot process, hit F1 to enter the BIOS, and from the security page is a "Allow Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA". Or there is also the ability to disable UEFI Secure Boot in its entirety.

And

This is the part that wasn't made clear in Garrett's blog post -- the 3rd party certificate can be easily enabled. But I do agree with his assessment that it's a stupid mandate to now have to disable this certificate by default and doesn't seem to be based on firm security reasons. Particularly around the lack of messaging over this change in default behavior it leads to a poor user experience and customers may just assume Linux is having technical troubles in booting on new laptops or other troubles.

And particularly reassuring is

Once enabling the third party certificate, the Ubuntu 22.04 LTS image booted up fine on the ThinkPad X13 Gen3 laptop. With the third party certificate enabled, the Microsoft Windows installation still booted up fine as well.

You can read the rest for yourselves.

On Matthew Garrett

Matthew is a former Redhat programmer. He is the author of shim and shim-signed, which allow Linux Distros to present a face to Microsoft as being certified (key) binaries that allow Linux to be installed on a computer than runs Microsoft's Secure boot.

Matthew is also Linus Torvald's first lieutenant, and he and Linus sign off on all changes to the Linux kernel.


On Michael Larabel

Michael (at the age of about 17, I think) set up phoronix.com to benchmark and review hardwarfe that could run Linux. That was in 2004. By 2008, he had developed and released Phoronix Test Suite, which is cross-platform (Linux and Windows) and allows the user to benchmark his or her computer equipment likewise.

Wizard
 

CrazedNerd

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Lastly people always hate change
Lmfao, the thing that bothered me was I couldn't update windows 10 to 11 even though UEFI was already enabled in the BIOS. I'm sure there was some way of doing it, yet am I to blame if I'd prefer to switch entirely to open source operating systems?

"People hate change", yeah, the whole human race was just mad about getting better internet than dial up, "I remember the good ol' days when it would take ten minutes for a page to load! I hate change!"
 

f33dm3bits

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"People hate change", yeah, the whole human race was just mad about getting better internet than dial up, "I remember the good ol' days when it would take ten minutes for a page to load! I hate change!"
Maybe I worded it wrong since my first language isn't English. Let me rephrase people generally dislike change they stick what they are used to.
 

CrazedNerd

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Maybe I worded it wrong since my first language isn't English. Let me rephrase people generally dislike change they stick what they are used to.
As long as we're at least trying to figure out what's going on...
 

SpongebobFan1994

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That's not going to happen because most of the population will stick to what they know and since Windows is still installed by default on almost every sold pc it will remain that way.

Considering most current Linux users were once Windows users (myself included), that's not completely accurate. Yes, you'll have some Windows users who are the horses that don't want to drink the water, but then there's the other users who are open-minded enough to try Linux out. Its all based on how you reach them.
 

CrazedNerd

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Considering most current Linux users were once Windows users (myself included), that's not completely accurate. Yes, you'll have some Windows users who are the horses that don't want to drink the water, but then there's the other users who are open-minded enough to try Linux out. Its all based on how you reach them.
The real reason why the situation is unlikely to change much (or atleast quickly) is because people tend to want computers that are practical and work oriented. Using Linux that way is not always hard, yet most are going to want to spend some money for something that requires no installation rather than spend hours adjusting to something new.

One of the things that seriously turned me off from Windows is how I bought a laptop with it installed but I didn't have any sort of iso or product key, product keys should seriously be a relic of the past...yet the proprietary software model needs some way of charging money for licensing.
 

SpongebobFan1994

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The real reason why the situation is unlikely to change much (or atleast quickly) is because people tend to want computers that are practical and work oriented. Using Linux that way is not always hard, yet most are going to want to spend some money for something that requires no installation rather than spend hours adjusting to something new.

Linux hardware vendors should start selling their products in stores like BestBuy, rather than being online businesses only. I'm not sure what the challenges are in doing that, but at least if they did do that, normies would become exposed to it and some will become intrigued by it. Considering Google and Apple's products are sold in conjunction to Microsoft's, Linux shouldn't be treated any differently.
 

CrazedNerd

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Linux hardware vendors should start selling their products in stores like BestBuy, rather than being online businesses only. I'm not sure what the challenges are in doing that, but at least if they did do that, normies would become exposed to it and some will become intrigued by it. Considering Google and Apple's products are sold in conjunction to Microsoft's, Linux shouldn't be treated any differently.
Best buy typically buys huge amounts of one product and sells it more expensive, I don't see how them branching out to Linux would help anyone. Fu*k best buy.
 

kibasnowpaw

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I think the best way would be to run op a lot of old Laptops and Pc's and install Linux on them and then sell them or give them away with the Linux on or like many others does tell your friends and families to try Linux and even install it for them.
if you wait for the store to start selling them then that gonna go a long time and it will be in a small amount because most people gonna stick to what they know works. In fact, I think all laptops should come with a Choose boot so the first time you turn on the PC it will ask you if you want to install Linux or Windows, and if the internet connects maybe even choose what version from a list or choose a default that has been pre-chosen that know would work like Ubuntu.
 

f33dm3bits

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Considering most current Linux users were once Windows users (myself included), that's not completely accurate. Yes, you'll have some Windows users who are the horses that don't want to drink the water, but then there's the other users who are open-minded enough to try Linux out. Its all based on how you reach them.
Yes what I said is accurate because I said most of the population and I didn't say all and I also said generally people dislike change so they stick to what they are used to. Generally meaning in general but that there can be exceptions. Most of the population doesn't mean all of the population, so that means there can be exceptions as well.
 
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wizardfromoz

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I think all laptops should come with a Choose boot so the first time you turn on the PC it will ask you if you want to install Linux or Windows, and if the internet connects maybe even choose what version from a list or choose a default that has been pre-chosen that know would work like Ubuntu.

I like that :)

It's not likely to happen anytime soon, but geez that would be good.

You'd probably have to include MacOS and BSD as choices as well.

Wiz
 

SpongebobFan1994

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I think the best way would be to run op a lot of old Laptops and Pc's and install Linux on them and then sell them or give them away with the Linux on or like many others does tell your friends and families to try Linux and even install it for them.

Maybe a number of us could start our own tech services companies where we'd help a client install Linux (I honestly think installing it for them is hand-holding at that point), show them the documentation and help them get familiar with using it, sign them for forums like this one and help them get familiar with using it, and service their computer if there's a hardware issue
 

CrazedNerd

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Maybe a number of us could start our own tech services companies where we'd help a client install Linux (I honestly think installing it for them is hand-holding at that point), show them the documentation and help them get familiar with using it, sign them for forums like this one and help them get familiar with using it, and service their computer if there's a hardware issue
That's a much better idea than expecting best buy to buy linux computers cuz you think it's better
 
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