My interesting story

[Darc Sceptor]

It was 2019 and I was in my 5th year of working for the Department of Defense. I had about 1 month where I did a "normal" job however I felt that saving our boys was more important than earning someone money. I was also moved around quite a bit just like being in the military. (My preferred language back then was c# and CPP BTW)

So I was in Oklahoma working on the Airbase there and found that I could afford to retire...as long as I lived outside of the U.S., so I tried to sell everything I could, I packed 2 suitcases, and on the 19th I moved to Medellin, Colombia. My first stop was in Houston and as I boarded the flight to Colombia I received the email that the Attorney General in Colombia accepted my visa application. I came into the airport and hired a car to drive me to my new home. The view of the city from above the valley was absolutely breath taking. And I spent my first night in my own bed in Medellin.

I spent about 1 year buying parts from Amazon and shipping them to my apartment. I had to do that because the import tax is horrendous once it goes over $200. I saved the CPU and Motherboard last so I had time to save money for the extra expense of a 19% tax. I built my computer from scratch, I used my neighbors laptop to download the ISO and I've been running Linux Mint since then.

This was not my first run with Linux as in my 32 year career I was a company architect and looked at Linux ever since 1996. My first time required that I download an iffy driver for our current network card, download the Linux kernel, and recompile it. I laughed and said no thank you. But I kept trying it. And each time everything got closer and closer to being a keeper. And now that is a keeper.

I find that on other forums the old Linux guard tends to attack new users and acts like anyone that wants to improve the UI as stupid. But as a Windows programmer for so long I know the UI standards which everyone conformed to on Windows. But here on Linux it is like developers refuse to conform to ANY consistent behavior or standard. And while they claim it is why Linux was created, it is what keeps people on Windows and not wanting to come to Linux. One example is just copy and paste. Every application I've worked with on Windows is consistent. Ctl-C for copy and CTL-V for paste. (I think...been a while) Here you have some apps that follow that but the ones that really need it are stuck in the use of the menu and mouse to copy and paste text. Blah. So I keep working with developers and groups to see what I can do to make Linux consistent, very usable, and easy for any Windows user to come on into the world of Linux.

 

[f33dm3bits]

Welcome to the forums here @Darc Sceptor!

I find that on other forums the old Linux guard tends to attack new users and acts like anyone that wants to improve the UI as stupid.

People don't switch to Linux to get a Windows-like experience and most Linux users don't want Linux to become more like Windows. LOL Gnome developers get attacked for doing something different than the classic desktop experience and for working on making the desktop experience more consistent and not implementing every single feature request thrown at them. That's kind of the opensource world, people start yelling when they disagree on some decisions in a project and than the project gets forked and then the dust settles for a while again and then the process repeats itself.

But as a Windows programmer for so long I know the UI standards which everyone conformed to on Windows. But here on Linux it is like developers refuse to conform to ANY consistent behavior or standard.

It's not like Microsoft has never done that.

Why doesn't Microsoft follow standards

Why don't Microsoft follow standards. This is now the third time I have witnessed a problem with a website. Mailouts. For some reason when sending out block emails we get about 80-100 failures and they all come from hotmail grrrrr Further investigation reveals it is something to do with...

ubuntuforums.org

Microsoft Office used to not use open standards and Microsoft has used DirectX and ActiveX over open standards. So Windows, isn't perfect either in their history of standards. Sharepoint isn't using enough open standards because trying to use it with another browser can cause issues, same goes for Microsoft Teams you can't use it with Firefox but are required to use a Chromium-based browser.

it is what keeps people on Windows and not wanting to come to Linux.

No that's not the problem The problem is people coming to Linux expect Linux to behave like Windows and are frustrated when that is not the case because they aren't willing to learn how a new os works. They think that they knew how Windows worked when they arrived into this world, which is not the case because most people grew up with Windows, meaning they learned over time.

If I were to switch to MacOS or BSD(or TempleOS) I would expect to go through a learning process as well as to understand how they work as they are not the same as what I know. Also if I were to switch to Windows I would not expect to be able to ge the same type of workflow I have on Linux because Windows is not Linux and I can't expect to be able to work the same way on Windows as I do on Linux.

So I keep working with developers and groups to see what I can do to make Linux consistent, very usable, and easy for any Windows user to come on into the world of Linux.

One thing that needs improvement is consistent UI in most DE's, Gnome has got a head start on that. So if you want a more consistent UI switch to that because Gnome developers take a lot of time to think things through before implementing something.

Good to have you here!

 

[kc1di]

Hello @Darc Sceptor
Welcome to the Linux Mint forum, enjoy the journey!

 

[Fanboi]

I think there's a misunderstanding here about Linux on a fundamental level. So...
"Do not try to change the Linux GUI, instead realize that there is no Linux GUI" (film ref, The Matrix)

There's no "Linux GUI". There KDE, XFCE, Gnome, Cinnamon, ...and load more. There are apps like xfce4-panel, rox-filer, ...and a plethora more. Anyway, these are all just components.
You have to remember one very important thing: Linux is not an OS (Debian, Arch, Ubuntu, etc. are OSes). It's a set of things developed by different people.

In "Linux", the core system will have similarities, but everything else is very dependent on distro and user choices. Network Manager is not "the" Network Configuration Manager on Linux, it is "a" Network Configuration Manager. This does contrast with Windows. You need to get out of the mindset of "the" and think of everything as "a". There was a Debian version using the BSD kernel, and now there's ChimeraOS (on my to-do list) which is a Linux kernel in a BSD userland. So even at a core level, everything is "a", not "the".

If you want, develop you own set of GUI frontends and make your own distro. Maybe you'll succeed where others, IMO, have failed. Then, maybe your distro brings in more Linux users, and that's great. Maybe some projects actually switch. I'd love to see how that turned out!
The Gnome devs tried to introduce consistency, rules, etc. for a more cohesive desktop experience (their hearts were in the right place). Even to the point some devs did an open letter begging users to not even theme their apps: https://stopthemingmy.app/ I actually laughed when a mate sent me the link. But I fully respect their POV, I even agree with some of the logic, but at the end of the day, I want to make my desktop my own.

Linux users (including many Windows refugees once they're used Linux for a couple of years) actually do not want rigid standards. We want choice. The only place I want standards is the CLI. Overall, I don't want to be forced into a specific GUI to which all must conform. If I don't like my File Manager's way of doing things, I want to know I can swap it out for something else. That's one of the big reasons why we use Linux after the novelty wears off: choice. You don't want your device telling you, "Now, this is how you do X." No, non, nein, iie, nee, aikona, nyet... I like, "I want to do X... this way! Then tomorrow that way!" I want rainbow space kitties and cyborg unicorns. M'kay. But someone else may want space unicorns. That's the beauty of Linux and the curse.

FWIW...

Spoiler

Never had a copy+paste issue, literally ever. In the CLI there are some oddities like nano using Ctrl+K and Ctrl+U to cut/paste, but it's their prerogative. If I don't like it, I can download their source and change it and build my own version... But Ctrl+C/X/V has never failed me (except where Shift is needed, eg the CLI). Even the legacy Ctrl+Insert and Shift+Insert work fine.

Before my knighthood, not a single senpai was mean to me for being a noob (that only happened after I joined The Guard -- initiations can be intense). Any "attacks" are nothing to do with Linux or Knights of the Old Nix (game reference: KOTOR), that is Human Psychology in that we are (most of us) resistant to change. So if you come along and say, "We need this app to work this way," then expect to get burned, it's not you they are targeting, it's your opinion. You have every right to (non-actionable) Free Speech, as do they.

All that said, I totally agree with you personally so far as preferring consistency. That's why I dislike GUIs, especially for system-level stuff. When MS changed the Control Panel layout, I had to set it to Classic just to be able to navigate things. Windows GUIs can be just as inconsistent as any. Actually that's one of my biggest reasons for preferring Linux, was because for the first time since DOS, I could do anything from the CLI and it was intuitive and consistent. I hadn't had that since DOS.

Edit: I just noticed, this is in the Member Introductions section. Maybe it needs moving?
Edit2: OMG, just realised, you haven't introduced yourself yet, mate. Sorry, you've been here for quite a while, lol. Well, welcome... again... Officially

 

[KGIII]

I've done some work for the DoD. I served eight years in the Marines but would later work as a contractor on a few projects. In fact, I was on a Navy base on 9/11. My employee and myself were escorted off the base and weren't allowed to grab our gear. It would be just about six months before we were allowed back on the base.

I can't really go into details with what we were doing there - though I hardly think it should be considered classified information. If anything, it should be classified as FOUO. But, yeah, the job required clearance. I'd had my clearance before, so it was not much of a pain.

However, don't get me started on the OPM hack. I'm still annoyed by that. Well, sometimes I'm not 'annoyed' so much as I have 'simmering anger'. All these years later and the only thing they've done for me was give me a useless year's worth of credit monitoring. Yeah... Because that makes up for it!

I sort of have similar plans - but only if the fecal matter hits the fan. If things start going too pear shaped then I've got a place in Canada and in Peru. Depending on how pear shaped it is going to get will determine where I go. For example, Peru is likely to be a relatively safe place to go if the first-world nations decide to throw down. I'm also quite fond of Peru.

Anyhow, you've been here for a while. By your introduction, I'm going to guess you've decided to stick around. If that's the case, welcome aboard.

 

[Darc Sceptor]

I think there's a misunderstanding here about Linux on a fundamental level. So...
"Do not try to change the Linux GUI, instead realize that there is no Linux GUI" (film ref, The Matrix)

There's no "Linux GUI". There KDE, XFCE, Gnome, Cinnamon, ...and load more. There are apps like xfce4-panel, rox-filer, ...and a plethora more. Anyway, these are all just components.
You have to remember one very important thing: Linux is not an OS (Debian, Arch, Ubuntu, etc. are OSes). It's a set of things developed by different people.

In "Linux", the core system will have similarities, but everything else is very dependent on distro and user choices. Network Manager is not "the" Network Configuration Manager on Linux, it is "a" Network Configuration Manager. This does contrast with Windows. You need to get out of the mindset of "the" and think of everything as "a". There was a Debian version using the BSD kernel, and now there's ChimeraOS (on my to-do list) which is a Linux kernel in a BSD userland. So even at a core level, everything is "a", not "the".

If you want, develop you own set of GUI frontends and make your own distro. Maybe you'll succeed where others, IMO, have failed. Then, maybe your distro brings in more Linux users, and that's great. Maybe some projects actually switch. I'd love to see how that turned out!
The Gnome devs tried to introduce consistency, rules, etc. for a more cohesive desktop experience (their hearts were in the right place). Even to the point some devs did an open letter begging users to not even theme their apps: https://stopthemingmy.app/ I actually laughed when a mate sent me the link. But I fully respect their POV, I even agree with some of the logic, but at the end of the day, I want to make my desktop my own.

Linux users (including many Windows refugees once they're used Linux for a couple of years) actually do not want rigid standards. We want choice. The only place I want standards is the CLI. Overall, I don't want to be forced into a specific GUI to which all must conform. If I don't like my File Manager's way of doing things, I want to know I can swap it out for something else. That's one of the big reasons why we use Linux after the novelty wears off: choice. You don't want your device telling you, "Now, this is how you do X." No, non, nein, iie, nee, aikona, nyet... I like, "I want to do X... this way! Then tomorrow that way!" I want rainbow space kitties and cyborg unicorns. M'kay. But someone else may want space unicorns. That's the beauty of Linux and the curse.

FWIW...

Spoiler

Never had a copy+paste issue, literally ever. In the CLI there are some oddities like nano using Ctrl+K and Ctrl+U to cut/paste, but it's their prerogative. If I don't like it, I can download their source and change it and build my own version... But Ctrl+C/X/V has never failed me (except where Shift is needed, eg the CLI). Even the legacy Ctrl+Insert and Shift+Insert work fine.

Before my knighthood, not a single senpai was mean to me for being a noob (that only happened after I joined The Guard -- initiations can be intense). Any "attacks" are nothing to do with Linux or Knights of the Old Nix (game reference: KOTOR), that is Human Psychology in that we are (most of us) resistant to change. So if you come along and say, "We need this app to work this way," then expect to get burned, it's not you they are targeting, it's your opinion. You have every right to (non-actionable) Free Speech, as do they.

All that said, I totally agree with you personally so far as preferring consistency. That's why I dislike GUIs, especially for system-level stuff. When MS changed the Control Panel layout, I had to set it to Classic just to be able to navigate things. Windows GUIs can be just as inconsistent as any. Actually that's one of my biggest reasons for preferring Linux, was because for the first time since DOS, I could do anything from the CLI and it was intuitive and consistent. I hadn't had that since DOS.

Edit: I just noticed, this is in the Member Introductions section. Maybe it needs moving?

And here you go once again Fanboy. Linux structure is the same as other operating systems I've worked on or written code in.
Base layer is the kernel. The job of the kernel is to communicate directly with the hardware. Before the presence of a kernel each developer had to write their own direct access to devices.

Next you have the drivers. While the kernel communicates directly with the hardware that is only a basic communication. The drivers either live in a special place that communicates with the kernel safely....or they are stupidly placed inside the kernel. Like Windows. The drivers allow for adding the unique features of each device such as talking to the CUDA of a graphics card.

Next is the comms layer. It is outside the kernel, talks to the drivers, and handles the communication inside the driver to the outside world. So, for example, you have the TCP layer creating a communication block or blocks and then you have the IP layer that talks to servers outside of the box itself. You have many of these pieces within the layer

The next layer at a high level is the way that the user can communicate with everything beneath it. You think the Terminal is beauty but it is really a mechanism stuck in the early 1990's when DOS still lived. But you have desktops and each varies in how good or how bad it is. I was here when the first window UI came out on Linux and boy did the old guard piss and moan and scream at the top of their lungs because who the hell wants a "simple" linux. Microsoft did not invent the Windows UI paradigm but they did a pretty good job working with external organisations to standardize the UI experience. Which extends to Mac.

So like it or not, Linux is an operating system with a GUI. You have the freedom of choosing one of many but it does not make it not a GUI. And, yes, it is in Member Introductions because it is my introduction and how I came to be here. You are the one opening this up to much more than just an introduction because it seems you hate alternative viewpoints. AND DO NOT FORGET that I will NEVER forget when a) you accused me of being a liar and b) implied I was stupid.

 

[Darc Sceptor]

Welcome to the forums here @Darc Sceptor!


People don't switch to Linux to get a Windows-like experience and most Linux users don't want Linux to become more like Windows. LOL Gnome developers get attacked for doing something different than the classic desktop experience and for working on making the desktop experience more consistent and not implementing every single feature request thrown at them. That's kind of the opensource world, people start yelling when they disagree on some decisions in a project and than the project gets forked and then the dust settles for a while again and then the process repeats itself.


Good to have you here!

Thanks for the Welcome. You will have an ever-increasing number of people coming to Linux due to the stupidity of Microsoft. So, yes, the new people coming will be looking for a Windows experience. Like it or not. There is nothing that stops a developer from deciding to follow a general standard such as CUI 2.0. The developers I've spoken to in the Linux world want to drive consistency. There is nothing wrong with consistency. I have installed about 7 variants of Linux over the past month or so. All but 1 follows a standard. Why is that good? Because when you decide to move to a new distro (for whatever reason) you know "If I go here, right click there, I will be have a context menu that lets me extend this behavior of the desktop." But there are also the "cowboys" which existed in every single company and government entity I've programmed in. They refuse to follow the rules.

But I love being here and I aim to be an active participant in the Linux community.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

Welcome to forums!

 

[wizardfromoz]

@Darc Sceptor and @Fanboi (note spelling, OP) are better to just agree to disagree, and/or choose to avoid each other's threads, we have a button for that, suggest finding it.

Just for accuracy for other viewers, Linux is a kernel. The OS is GNU/Linux, and it has many distributions available to choose from. Most are equipped with a GUI but you can choose to have CLI-based.

Diversity should be embraced, or at least entertained?

Wizard

 

[wizardfromoz]

BTW I joined in 2014 but did not introduce myself until 2017, it happens, lol.

 

[Fanboi]

And here you go once again Fanboy.

Yeah, I actually thought, "I should delete my post before it starts drama" when I logged in -- even though I was trying to explain something to you -- because I forgot you're not my biggest fan. Anyway, I'm just trying to give you a cultural understanding of Linux vs Windows (and others) and how the Linux ecosystem works. And it's because so many of your posts have been about how "Linux should be be this" where "this" is usually something akin to Windows.
BTW, it's "Fanboi" not "Fanboy", the name's an intentional joke.

Linux structure is the same as other operating systems I've worked on or written code in....

I know how an OS works...

You think the Terminal is beauty but it is really a mechanism stuck in the early 1990's when DOS still lived. But you have desktops and each varies in how good or how bad it is.

Agree to disagree. Although, I think you may misunderstand me. I meant having a CLI handy. I just like the common interface it provides, the ability to easily run scripts through said common interface rather than a secondary scripting tool, etc. Different strokes, though I think many people feel like this or Windows wouldn't have added PowerShell to its arsenal, they would've completely done away with cmd ages ago.

I was here when the first window UI came out on Linux and boy did the old guard piss and moan and scream at the top of their lungs because who the hell wants a "simple" linux.

They did?

So like it or not, Linux is an operating system with a GUI. You have the freedom of choosing one of many but it does not make it not a GUI.

Well, that's not entirely true. "Linux" (as in GNU with a Linux kernel and maybe BSD with a Linux kernel -- ChimeraOS) is a set of optional components, of which X/Wayland/etc. + a DE + graphical apps are all optional components.
Windows is a GUI OS (well, Desktop, not thinking ServerCore) because you cannot remove the GUI component (on Desktop) and it's more or less fixed to work in a certain way.
The graphical environment is a shell, just like CLIs are a shell. Plenty of people still run their appliances/servers without X/Wayland/etc. installed (and some people prefer Windows Server without a GUI). So I think you misunderstand me. I mean don't use fdisk when I have Gparted, but it's useful to have fdisk in many, many situations.

And, yes, it is in Member Introductions because it is my introduction and how I came to be here.

Yes, and I already explained in my second edit that I didn't realize you hadn't done a formal intro because you've been here quite a while... and I chose not to edit away my mistake, I added a strikethrough because I wanted to own that mistake, not just edit it out before you saw me post -- something I regret now as I'm really not trying to upset you.

You are the one opening this up to much more than just an introduction because it seems you hate alternative viewpoints. AND DO NOT FORGET that I will NEVER forget when a) you accused me of being a liar and b) implied I was stupid.

I'm not the only one, and not the first one, who posted things the ran contrary to your commentary and "opened things up" -- just to be fair. But I'll take my lashes because:
a) I didn't realise it was an intro because many of your posts have contained a brief history of yours and you've been here quite some time. But that's still totally on me, my bad.
b) I should've considered that anything I say seems to trigger you (I don't mean that condescendingly, it's your choice not to like my content).
A couple of things I will take a little exception to because I don't appreciate because I do not take kindly to accusations:
1. I don't dislike differing opinions. I embrace all opinions, but I don't have to agree with them. In fact, I agreed with you about consistency and I earlier encouraged you to pursue your goals. I mean I don't know how much more supportive of your right to an opinion I could've been.
2. I never said you were stupid. If you have any citations, please link them. And I did not accuse you of lying. Others have said/implied way worse. And I had the decency to be honest point out why in your "Why do people not believe me." discourse.

Look, I'm not sure why you seem to have an issue with me, and TBH, I don't care because you're under no obligation to even spit on me if I'm of fire. I don't dislike you FWIW.
I will keep out of any new threads you post unless I have something vitally valid to add, like troubleshooting, but no more off-topic from me.
So I hope we're cool and I hope you get that I was not trying to undermine you, but if it comes across that way, I apologise. If there's anything you'd like to say on a personal note, my DM's open, though my response time is poor, but I will eventually answer.

 

[Fanboi]

@Darc Sceptor and @Fanboi (note spelling, OP) are better to just agree to disagree, and/or choose to avoid each other's threads, we have a button for that, suggest finding it.

Just for accuracy for other viewers, Linux is a kernel. The OS is GNU/Linux, and it has many distributions available to choose from. Most are equipped with a GUI but you can choose to have CLI-based.

Diversity should be embraced, or at least entertained?

Wizard

Lol, just had that in my post... Great minds. But yeah, I think it's run its course...

 

[wizardfromoz]

Night, James.

 

[Condobloke]

G'night Jonboy..

G'night granpa

(movie reference 'The Waltons' )

 

[KGIII]

BTW I joined in 2014 but did not introduce myself until 2017, it happens, lol.

As an aside, I too didn't do my intro thread until after I was a moderator. Though, that was quite a bit less than three years.

 

[theLegionWithin]

what's the weather down there like - humid sure, but other than that?

 

[Darc Sceptor]

what's the weather down there like - humid sure, but other than that?

It all depends on where you live. I live in Medellin which has earned the second name given the city " City of Eternal Spring ". We usually have lovely weather in the 70's during the day, if it rains 9 times out of 10 it is at night, homes here do not have air conditioners or heaters, and the city strives for green areas almost every few blocks.

In Bogota it is higher in altitude so it is colder and has a winter. In Cali it is on the coast and is humid and hot.