The Ham Radio (and Related topics) Discussion and Question Thread

[kc1di]

Mosher hill repeater is on/off I've been there many times and it's not that high up. I grew up in Farmington so know the area well.
At times I could hit it from here. But as I said it not always on. You just have to keep trying.
There are actually 2 repeaters there

1. https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=23&ID=3346

Reports to be up and running as I write.

2. https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=23&ID=3350

 

[KGIII]

Also...

I used a 36 foot extendable ladder and secured the ladder to the T bar of the clothes line pole we had in the backyard.

I most decidedly will be doing nothing of the sort, At best, I'll hurl a weighted wire over something.

Anything else can, and will, be installed by professionals. Well, anything that requires significant height.

Well, for some definition of 'professionals'.

I've got friends in low places. They'll probably offer to help for the low cost of nothing, but I'll insist on paying their fair wages 'cause time is important and they're spending their time. Heck, I've got a pretty good buddy with a 90' man lift. It's even telescopic and not a scissor jack.

I am surrounded by Mainers with all sorts of equipment. We're an industrious people.

(I can't really risk a fall.)

You just have to keep trying.

That's the plan.

Following conventions, I did what Baofeng owners are supposed to do next and I ordered an Abbree antenna. The one I ordered will be here in a couple of weeks or something like that.

That gives me plenty of time to keep trying.

I did get a tone through something. I wasn't looking at the radio at the time, but it sounded like the tone they use when they're calling out a volunteer fire department, or doing their regular radio check at night.

I have the radio on and turned up a bit, still going from channel to channel to channel.

I think I'm going to try listening on just one or two channels for a little while.

 

[The Duck]

The Duck said:
I used a 36 foot extendable ladder and secured the ladder to the T bar of the clothes line pole we had in the backyard.

I most decidedly will be doing nothing of the sort,

(I can't really risk a fall.)

When the ladder tower was done I was in my 20s and no climbing is needed.
Basically you lean the ladder on something and install the antenna to it.
Block the base of the ladder against what it's going to be secured to and walk it up as you would any ladder or stand it up using a rope.
Once all is secured you than raise the extendable part of the ladder and viola a temporary antenna tower.
That's the kind of stuff you learn to do at ham radio events and it's a common practice for temporary antenna use.
I wouldn't do it now I'm to old but I'd instruct others to safely do it as I was back in the day.
That's what ham radio is about imo learning how to use practices as that in case it is needed for whatever the reason.

 

[KGIII]

When the ladder tower was done I was in my 20s and no climbing is needed.

I get it now. I'm a bit slow sometimes.

As previously mentioned, I did like a day or two of radio training which consisted of using a radio, chucking wire over a tree, and maybe a laminated piece of paper that had Morse code and jargon on it.
They did mention another form of antenna but it involved a length of wire leading into a T with equal lengths of wire on either side. We didn't practice that. I think the wire we used was pretty much just expensive heavier gauge speaker wire, though I've heard people mention using the same wire you use for coax cable, but I haven't paid enough attention to that.

 

[The Duck]

I get it now. I'm a bit slow sometimes.

I've been that way quite some times off and on.

As previously mentioned, I did like a day or two of radio training which consisted of using a radio, chucking wire over a tree,

I've used bow and arrow method to get wires up and over tree limbs.

They did mention another form of antenna but it involved a length of wire leading into a T with equal lengths of wire on either side. We didn't practice that.

There might be some on this page that might be what you're referring to.

https://www.wa2ooo.com/wireantenna.html

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0683033.pdf

Wire_Antennas_for_Ham_Radio

I think the wire we used was pretty much just expensive heavier gauge speaker wire, though I've heard people mention using the same wire you use for coax cable, but I haven't paid enough attention to that.

Just about any wire will work for a wire antenna.
Stranded wire gives more flexibility.
Antenna coax works great for wired antennas depending on the type of wired antenna.
I've always used RG-58 which is 50 ohms impedance.
Using the right impedance coax on transceivers is a must as the antenna has to be matched or tuned to the transceiver for the lowest SWR.
I've used regular RG-59 coax aka TV coax which is 75 ohm impedance for antennas for receive only on radios and it works well for receiving only.
Building antennas is fun especially when up and working.

 

[atanere]

They did mention another form of antenna but it involved a length of wire leading into a T with equal lengths of wire on either side.

That sounds to me like it may have been a half-wave dipole, as I described above. It is one of the most basic of HF antennas. HF dipoles are usually made of stranded copper wire, but light gauge wires are prone to stretch, making them longer and not as well tuned for the frequency you have cut it for originally. Steel clad copper wire can resist stretching better. The wire dipole can be fed with coax cable or "ladder line" (similar to TV twin lead cable, but bigger and heavier).

The natural impedance of a flat-topped HF dipole is about 75 ohms, but many people put the center of the dipole (the feedpoint) up high and then slope the legs of the wire downward. This brings the impedance closer to 50 ohms, the most common coax cable used by hams. This style of dipole is called an "inverted vee." Matching the impedance is what gives you a low "standing wave ratio" (SWR). If the antenna is cut and tuned well, you may not need a tuner. But the further away from the "resonant frequency" you go (where the SWR is 1:1)... the SWR starts to climb and a tuner will be needed. Many modern HF transceivers have an automatic antenna tuner built in.

Some people use a "balun" at the feedpoint of a dipole, and other antennas too. The pros and cons of a balun are not unlike discussions about systemd-versus-sysvinit... you can form your own opinion if you ever build one. Some antennas require a balun.

Building a quarter-wave ground plane or a Yagi beam... your elements are usually a solid metal or tubing, usually aluminum or copper like the J-Pole. There are variations that can use wire too, but it has to be supported. You might search arround for info on a "quagi" antenna for 2m... a cross between a cubical quad and a Yagi (pictures). These make excellent 2m beams and are easy to build using 2x2 lumber for the frame.

A quarter-wave ground plane (pictures) can literally be made out of coat hangars! But they are steel and will be hard to solder the coax connections. You might try using solid copper wire, like #10 or #12 household wiring. The center conductor of the coax attaches to the vertical radiator, and the shield of the coax attaches to the ground radials. Similarly, the center conductor of a coax feedline attaches to one side of the dipole, and the coax shield connects to the other side of the dipole. These connections need to be isolated from each other, and often a piece of plexiglass makes a good support material and helps to keep the center conductor and shield separated. Some method of weatherproofing is desired at the feedpoint, or else you may create a short between the center conductor and shield when the antenna is wet, or covered with snow or ice.

I see @The Duck just brought up impedance matching too!

 

[atanere]

Yeah, I think that's the case. Oddly, I get some solid scanner action here, whenever there's anything going on. I even pick up signals from the village.

I suppose a scanner is more optimized for that sort of thing? I really don't know.

Public service radio (police, fire, etc) may have their repeaters on very tall towers, and they may use more power than the typical ham repeaters. And your scanner likely has a "telescoping whip" antenna... yes? Those aren't great antennas either, but better than the "rubber ducky" on amateur handheld radios like the Baofeng. And your scanner may just have a "hotter" receiver than the Baofeng.

You can get telescoping whip antennas for the Baofeng, and maybe that is what you've ordered for it. If so, it will probably be bigger than your scanner antenna, and it can be clumsy to use... but it will help the signals.

Another thing some folks do (and I've done)... is to buy a mobile magnetic mount 2m/440 antenna for a car, but stick it on top of your refrigerator, or washer/dryer, or toolbox. If you go this route, be sure to get the right connector on the coax cable to match your Baofeng as there are several different connectors available and it's better not to use adapters if you can help it. You might move the antenna around inside the house (in front of a window can help), sticking it to whatever you can, and you'll get varying results towards different directions. You might even try putting an antenna in your attic... it gets it higher and keeps it out of the weather.

 

[KGIII]

Building antennas is fun especially when up and working.

It sounds like it. I've got a lot to learn - and that's a good thing.

That sounds to me like it may have been a half-wave dipole, as I described above.

That sounds right. I should have fun with this stuff.

And your scanner likely has a "telescoping whip" antenna... yes?

I'm not sure what 'whip' means, but it's an aftermarket telescoping antenna.

You can get telescoping whip antennas for the Baofeng, and maybe that is what you've ordered for it.

I ordered the funny looking, foldable Abbree that everyone sticks on a Baofeng eventually.

Even though it's an HT, I'm not too concerned with portability at this time. I may eventually go on a drive and take it with me, just to see if I pick anything up.

I'd love to respond more, but I'm downloading thousands of files on a horrible connection. It took me like 10 tries just to quote someone.

 

[atanere]

I ordered the funny looking, foldable Abbree that everyone sticks on a Baofeng eventually.

I never did, but too late now.

I did look up the Abbree... it will be better, but still limited because of your distance to repeaters or other activity. It doesn't gain you any height, and height will help immensely to bridge longer distances.

I'm not sure what 'whip' means, but it's an aftermarket telescoping antenna.

"Whip" is just a generic term that basically means a single radiator... no loading coils, no ground radials, no extra beam elements (reflectors and directors). Back in CB days, a stainless steel 102-inch "whip" was pretty common on bumpers. Hmmm, here's that half-wave antenna formula showing up again! I thought it would!

The 102-inch whip is a quarter-wave vertical, and CB channel 40 is 27.405 MHz...

468 / 27.405 MHz = 17.077 feet... /2 for quarter-wave = 8.539 feet...
= about 102.5 inches

Amazing, isn't it?

Although the half-wave dipole formula has been well defined, remember that it is really just a starting point. Different materials, different diameter of elements, and other factors have to be taken into account. Antenna modeling software is available to help with nitty gritty details, including for Linux, but trial-and-error is definitely part of the ham tradition.

A good rule of thumb for dipoles is to start a little long long, and trim as needed to reach the resonant frequency you want.

A good rule of thumb for any antenna is to permanently install it in the absolute worst weather conditions. It will stay up forever! LOL

 

[KGIII]

Back in CB days, a stainless steel 102-inch "whip" was pretty common on bumpers. Hmmm, here's that half-wave antenna formula showing up again!

I had one of those. I had another one that tucked into retainers and looped over the back of my old Volvo wagon - a delightful 245. I have replaced said Volvo with another example and it's a restomod, but that's a topic for another thread.

I have some bandwidth. My computer, it matters not which one I use at this point, is installing thousands of applications. I'm moving one device from whatever Mint was before (20? I think?) to a modern version. I hate the Mint update process, but here we are.

I then need to update a Manjaro box that hasn't even been booted in a while. So, that'll be GBs worth of data. I decided I have to do it, or I'd be a bad netizen. I do not want to be a bad netizen, so I keep my stuff updated - even when it's painful to do so.

Yes, my network is that bad.

I've kept the radio on a single channel pretty much all day - the local emergency frequency. Not a peep...

The Abbree antenna will be here soon and we'll see if that helps.

This is the antenna I ordered:

https://www.amazon.com/42-5-inch-ABBREE-Tactical-Radioddity-Tri-Band/dp/B07X2X79B4/

And, as for height, I'm already higher than almost everything around me. Depending on the direction, there are trees but that's it. I figure I gotta have at least a little advantage at that point! LOL

I'm pretty high up compared to everything around me. Like, on a clear day I can easily see Mt. Washington. (I don't know how familiar you are with the area, but that's a metric we use around here.)

Hmm... Is it possible that I'm too high? I realize this stuff in these bands is line of sight, but does that deal with increased elevation well?

 

[The Duck]

And, as for height, I'm already higher than almost everything around me. Depending on the direction, there are trees but that's it. I figure I gotta have at least a little advantage at that point! LOL

I'm pretty high up compared to everything around me. Like, on a clear day I can easily see Mt. Washington. (I don't know how familiar you are with the area, but that's a metric we use around here.)

Hmm... Is it possible that I'm too high? I realize this stuff in these bands is line of sight, but does that deal with increased elevation well?

When it comes to RF signals anything is possible.
Sometimes receiving antennas need radials on them to help pull in signals.
Ever noticed that some old and new outdoor OTA TV antennas (the element types) have extra elements on them even though they are not connected to the antenna itself.
The extra elements help pull in weak signals and the more elements on the antenna the better the signal.
I'd run a length of wire between two points outside and connect to it and see if that improves anything.
You're going to have to play around with different antenna type to increase reception sometimes and some antenna types work better than others.

 

[kc1di]

Antennas are a great subject. But first you need to make some choices. About equipment. If you want VHF -UHF antennas there are many to choose from. But the Jpole is a good one. On HF I recommend getting a good Antenna tuner. One with wide range matching and a good SWR/power Meter, if the rig does not have that function built in. A good starting point for antenna is a G5RV or similar dipole which is multiband. 87 foot end fed wire with good tuner and ground connection or radials will also do a decent job on all HF bands. I recommend a good antenna wire. you can get many types here.

https://www.davisrf.com/antenna-wire/

there are other sellers also. Here is another.

Amateur Radio Supplies-Coax and Connectors to Radios and Antennas

Founded in 2012, Amateur Radio Supplies has shipped over 300,000 items to Ham Radio Operators around the world. From Coax and Connectors to Radios and Antennas - and everything in between. Prices below suggested retail, ARS ships flat rate on most items. Among our most popular items, the G5RV...

www.amateurradiosupplies.com

In any event any wire on HF is better than no wire.
One warning do not use nylon based ropes to hold your antennas up. They rot in the sunlight and will eventually break on you usually at the worst time. like middle of winter in a blizzard.

 

[atanere]

Hmm... Is it possible that I'm too high?

I dunno... what are you smoking?

And, as for height, I'm already higher than almost everything around me. Depending on the direction, there are trees but that's it.

Trees are not helpful on VHF/UHF. But they aren't a deal breaker. Getting any kind of antenna up outside, as much in the clear as possible, will help you. If you have a lot of trees, you may notice an improvement in signals during the winter when there is less foliage.

Your high elevation is a plus for sure. You probably don't need a huge tower unless you do want to get above your treeline, or if you want to support larger or more complex antennas. Many decent antennas can be supported with simple TV mast or other rigid pipe stood up alongside your house. You may need guy wires, depending on height and wind load.

In general, VHF/UHF antennas need less space and support than HF antennas, needing only a single support. A simple wire antenna usually needs 3 supports, the middle and each end, all which should be out of reach to most people. Trees can be your friend here, and they are often used to support the ends of a wire antenna.

With VHF/UHF... the higher the antenna, the better. With HF, whether wire antennas or large beams, achieving great height is not all that beneficial, but you do want HF antennas to be in the clear as much as possible too. Trees don't hinder HF signals, I don't think, or not as badly. You can buy or build vertical antennas for HF too, some that need support to gain height, but some that can be mounted at the ground.

And you may want to consider the "aesthetics" of your antenna projects. I think most hams think of towers and antennas as "beautiful"... but my wife has taught me that not everyone feels that way.

 

[The Duck]

Hmm... Is it possible that I'm too high?

I dunno... what are you smoking?

Priceless.

And you may want to consider the "aesthetics" of your antenna projects. I think most hams think of towers and antennas as "beautiful"... but my wife has taught me that not everyone feels that way.

At least you were taught I was told in a few words.

 

[KGIII]

You're going to have to play around with different antenna type to increase reception sometimes and some antenna types work better than others.

This sounds like fun. I've got some books on antennas and I'm not sure that enough will have changed for it to make those books obsolete.

But first you need to make some choices. About equipment. If you want VHF -UHF antennas there are many to choose from. But the Jpole is a good one.

That's the space I think will be the most interesting for my start. That looks like a good place to gain experience and knowledge. (I've been doing a whole lot of reading.)

I should probably take my radio with me out on the road at some point.

Getting any kind of antenna up outside, as much in the clear as possible, will help you.

That's what I've been gathering. To get started, I think I'll buy an antenna or two and mount them in the fall. This is my 'winter' activity, so I want to get that done before it gets cold. I'll probably find someoneo to install them for me. I think I know just the person who should also be able to ensure they're the right SWR and whatnot.

And you may want to consider the "aesthetics" of your antenna projects.

That is a consideration. I have a big beautiful house. I wouldn't even let them mount a satellite dish on the house. That sits on a pad and a pole out behind the house. (You have to do that around here, else Mr. Wind will steal it. I'm just a few mountains away from Mt. Washington.)

This thread is coming along nicely.

 

[atanere]

I wouldn't even let them mount a satellite dish on the house. That sits on a pad and a pole out behind the house. (You have to do that around here, else Mr. Wind will steal it. I'm just a few mountains away from Mt. Washington.)

The tradeoff you pay for the plus side of living at a higher elevation, I guess. Mr. Wind will gladly steal your ham antennas too. So it sounds like simply standing up a TV mast and attaching it to the eave of the house is not likely the way you'll want to go.

You need something sturdy, so I guess your plans are to erect a tower. But it will need to be above your house peak (unlike your satellite antenna), and the aesthetics of that still may bug you, or your wife, and maybe others. There have been many, many battles over towers, and there will be many, many more. You can get some protection from state/local restrictions by a federal preemption called PRB-1, but it does not cover everything, notably any "covenants" that you may have entered voluntarily. See here for more info.

You should seriously investigate your local zoning regulations about towers. I know you are remote, but you could still be subject to county zoning restrictions and you may need a permit. There could be restrictions on tower height, especially if you have an airport nearby. Some folks think, "It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission." But you don't want to pay a lot of money for professional installation, and then turn around and pay again to have it taken down. (It happens! It looks like this old case was in the Portland, Maine area, but the link to follow it no longer works, so I don't know the resolution of it.)

I highly recommend you get informed about tower installation by those in the know for your county, not just folks like me guessing about it. Keep good documentation on the entire process... permits, engineering details and specifications, inspections... the kinds of things you might need to defend your tower in court, if it were to come to that. Here's an example from PA of how the ham seemed to do everything right and kept their tower.

This thread is coming along nicely.

I've enjoyed it, for my part. I don't spend much time on here anymore, and especially in Off Topic. But I'm glad that you carved off this thread and gave it a life of its own. I hope I've helped a bit.

Ham radio and Linux are a good mix... both are available to anyone of varying skill levels, and both are well suited to "tinkerers" and those who like to understand how things work "under the hood." Of course Linux is free, but ham radio can be very low cost for those who make that a goal, even if it's not your personal goal.

 

[KGIII]

Mr. Wind will gladly steal your ham antennas too.

That's one of the reasons I'll have them professionally installed.

I know you are remote, but you could still be subject to county zoning restrictions and you may need a permit.

I believe I'm allowed to stand up anything up to 100' in height. If it's commercial then I need to follow the state's codes. I'm pretty sure, but will check. I'm good with all the smaller antennas I want. I can theoretically deck out the entire place with 'em, hundreds of 'em if I felt such an urge. (I do not feel such an urge.)

But I'm glad that you carved off this thread and gave it a life of its own. I hope I've helped a bit.

You have been a great benefit to the thread, and surely not just for me. I'm sure others are interested and learning. Well, I'm pretty sure... Who knows? Our conversations may urge someone else to get into the hobby.

Ham radio and Linux are a good mix...

I've done some looking at SDR as well. It looks like there are Linux tools available and the devices tend to work with Linux easily enough.

I did note that the internet is wrong. Well, at least in my case. With mine, when I connect CHIRP, it's not a tty/* number, but is on the USB channel. Everywhere online seems to say different.

It slowed me down by maybe a minute, 'cause I know how 'lsusb' works.

 

[The Duck]

This thread is coming along nicely.

It's alright gave me a reason to dig out my 2 Meter radios.

 

[KGIII]

It's alright gave me a reason to dig out my 2 Meter radios.

I'd say that's a net positive.

I was actually a bit surprised that the thread didn't already exist somewhere and that I had to start it. It probably should have been started by someone that knows what they're doing. Instead, you got me!

Oh, I took my radio outside and I'm pretty sure I heard some CW going on. It was a series of dots and dashes, or some very confusing static, and quite weak - but I'm pretty sure I heard someone sending out some Morse code.

I have no idea what they were saying. I think it was a repeater channel from the Farmington area but I wouldn't quote me on that. I do not know Morse code other than the letters S and O. I can send an SOS signal I suppose. I doubt it'd ever do me any good, but I have the knowledge.

 

[KGIII]

Ha! I had the radio in frequency mode where it listens on just two frequencies and I heard the 19:00 tone test that they do for the volunteer fire and rescue squads. It wasn't clear, but I could hear it.