Secure messengers - Signal and Telegram

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etcetera

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Why? Because if you travel, a regular text SMS message involves charges and if you are in an area with poor reception, it may not even get there.
Enter Telegram and or Signal.
They work off wifi/network, can make fully encrypted voice and video calls, messages have set time-outs (self-deletes).
They just make so much more sense. They have no disadvantages, only advantages. They only caveat is both parties have to use the same app.
Signal -> Signal; Telegram-> telegram.

There are others too, like whatsapp but it's owned by Facebook and monitors everything you do, up to the charge level of your battery. A major security hole. Signal collects no metadata.

And they run on Linux. Admittedly the Debian/buntu branch are easier to install on, thought I got the redhat branch working too.
 
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I started using telegram with my gf because AT&T was filtering SMS between carriers and my messages were getting killed as spam. Telegram bypasses that and we once again have stable communication. The added extra in telegram was the security and encryption. We can do calls on it without being monitored. We can also send large files to each other. Something SMS can't do.
 
etcetera said:
There are others too, like whatsapp but it's owned by Facebook and monitors everything you do, up to the charge level of your battery. A major security hole. Signal collects no metadata.
Click to expand...
I prefer Signal and use it with several people but lets be real, everyone else around me still uses Whatsapp and they aren't going to switch to Signal just because I'm the odd ball in the pond that uses something most of the population hasn't even heard and most people around me aren't going to switch from convenience to less convenience just because I say so.
 
it takes the average person longer to realize they are being screwed or tracked. Then they move to what you already knew. only reason gf moved to telegram was when I showed her a screenshot of my messages and compared to hers and she saw AT&T killing my replies. She switched right away. If you ever want to convince somebody you have to show them how they are being affected directly and specifically. warnings do not do it. documentation showing what happens will not do it.

you must always overcome at least one of these...

1... I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't need to worry about the tracking and privacy.
2... I am used to what I have and it works.
3... It doesn't affect me.
 
f33dm3bits said:
I prefer Signal and use it with several people but lets be real, everyone else around me still uses Whatsapp and they aren't going to switch to Signal just because I'm the odd ball in the pond that uses something most of the population hasn't even heard and most people around me aren't going to switch from convenience to less convenience just because I say so.
Click to expand...


Telegram has become the second most popular messenger, it is rapidly gaining membership. whatsapp has 1 billion users but telegram is closing in, fast. Their rate of growth exceeds that of anything else. Signal is growing too.

Telegram is not just a messenger, it is an entire ecosystem, there is groups, channels and you can join. I get all my news there. It's not MainStreamMedia, it's people directly from the "trenches"
You can spin up your own channel if you want and report.
MSM is dead to me. They filter news for the lowest common denominator.

Telegram has some really interesting features others don't. For example you can send timed messages into the future. Say you travel in a danger zone. If your phone is confiscated/plane crashes/etc. the message gets delivered. If all is OK, you delete the message and it never gets sent.
It's so good that Signal copied it.
Then there is the peer-to-peer encryption.
 
If everyone encrypts everything, the BG (Bad Guy) doesn't know which message to target for decryption. It's the herd effect which increases safety and security, crypto has to become widespread. It kind of already has, except that everyone is using non-compatible messengers. Why would you not encrypt, today in 2024, is astounding, when the technology is built into every tool you can use.

Another cool feature which Signal copied from Telegram is that you can create nick and share that instead of a phone number. Innovative.
 
viber gets the honorable mention, it is kind of popular in eastern europe but not really worldwide. It does voice, video, message self-delete, etc. It was the first messenger I started using. I think it's behind telegram functionality-wise.
 
security.png
 
another thing I love about telegram is that if I am talking to somebody I can edit my mistyped message and I can delete the conversation or parts of it not just on my device but on the other end also.
 
etcetera said:
Telegram has become the second most popular messenger,
Then there is the peer-to-peer encryption.
Click to expand...
Are Telegram use t end-to-end message encryption by default yet, last time I checked that wasn't the case you had to select that you want to use it for your message. I did some searching and came across this.

End-to-End Encryption FAQ

While checking the results of a recent quiz on how End-to-End Encryption (E2EE) works on Telegram, I noticed that not everyone…
tsf.telegram.org tsf.telegram.org
While your Cloud Chats can be accessed from any of your devices anytime, Secret Chats are not part of the Telegram Cloud and are device-specific by design. This way you can always be sure that they are safe for as long as your phone is safe in your pocket. Secret Chats also use end-to-end encryption, so they can’t be synced in the same simple and convenient way as Cloud Chats. We may add support for multi-device Secret Chats in the future.
Click to expand...

I just reinstalled Telegram to try something out and all my chats from before I reinstall my phone appear. Meaning those are all cloud chats, as stated that official Telegram link it states that Cloud chats aren't end-to-end encrypted and private chats are. Now we know that the NSA most likely has a back door in Facebook and WhatsApp, knowing that I still prefer Signal and if I were to recommend Telegram to anyone and they tried they would use Cloud chats so that they have a history in case they can keep their chat history in case they have to reinstall their phone or if they get a new phone.

etcetera said:
Telegram has some really interesting features others don't. For example you can send timed messages into the future.

Telegram is not just a messenger, it is an entire ecosystem, there is groups, channels and you can join. I get all my news there. It's not MainStreamMedia, it's people directly from the "trenches"
You can spin up your own channel if you want and report.
Click to expand...
So in theory if you only use cloud chats Telegram doesn't have much advantage over Whatsapp. The only advantage I can see for myself is sending my boss an automatic message that I am sick the day before lol but I'm sure it's useful to many other people.

etcetera said:
Then there is the peer-to-peer encryption.
Click to expand...
Can you tell me more about this, how does this work with Telegram?
 
f33dm3bits said:
Are Telegram use t end-to-end message encryption by default yet, last time I checked that wasn't the case you had to select that you want to use it for your message. I did some searching and came across this.

End-to-End Encryption FAQ

While checking the results of a recent quiz on how End-to-End Encryption (E2EE) works on Telegram, I noticed that not everyone…
tsf.telegram.org tsf.telegram.org

I just reinstalled Telegram to try something out and all my chats from before I reinstall my phone appear. Meaning those are all cloud chats, as stated that official Telegram link it states that Cloud chats aren't end-to-end encrypted and private chats are.
Click to expand...
Cloud chats aren't end-to-end (peer to peer) encrypted but they are encrypted.

This is not a bug, it's a feature. Because you can connect from X devices and all of them can access the cloud.
f33dm3bits said:
Now we know that the NSA most likely has a back door in Facebook and WhatsApp, knowing that I still prefer Signal and if I were to recommend Telegram to anyone and they tried they would use Cloud chats so that they have a history in case they can keep their chat history in case they have to reinstall their phone or if they get a new phone.


So in theory if you only use cloud chats Telegram doesn't have much advantage over Whatsapp.
Click to expand...

No. Whatsapp collects tons of metadata, they know everything about you. Telegram and Signal collect almost none. There is no reason to use whatsapp at all.

Are Cloud Chats secure?​

Since without E2EE Cloud Chat data is theoretically accessible, we use a unique distributed infrastructure to protect it. Cloud Chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that are controlled by different legal entities spread across different jurisdictions. The relevant decryption keys are split into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a result, local intruders or engineers can't access this data, and several court orders from different jurisdictions are required to force us to give up any of it.

Thanks to this structure, we can ensure that no single government or block of like-minded countries can intrude on people's privacy and freedom of expression. Telegram can be forced to give up data only if an issue is grave and universal enough to pass the scrutiny of several different legal systems around the world.

As a result, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments, to this day.


f33dm3bits said:
The only advantage I can see for myself is sending my boss an automatic message that I am sick the day before lol but I'm sure it's useful to many other people.


Can you tell me more about this, how does this work with Telegram?
Click to expand...

what exactly?

Say you travel extensively. If you have a minor child and a bank account, how do you enable the minor child to access the bank account in case of "unscheduled disassembly" or a heart attack or something?

Because you know, such things never happen, or happen to other people.

The "send a message if something does not happen" is a very useful feature in 100 and 1 different scenarios.
 
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etcetera said:
what exactly?
Click to expand...
You were mentioned peer-to-peer encryption, how does that make Telegram better.

etcetera said:
Cloud chats aren't end-to-end (peer to peer) encrypted but they are encrypted.
Click to expand...
So peer-to-peer is another term for end-to-end?

etcetera said:
No. Whatsapp collects tons of metadata, they know everything about you. Telegram and Signal collect almost none. There is no reason to use whatsapp at all.
Click to expand...
Yes there is a reason to use Whatsapp because none of my family members or social contacts are willing to switch to something else because everyone around them uses Whatsapp too. You expect me to cut social contact with family and friends who I don't get to see that often any ways because everyone has busy lives. Whatsapp at least allows me to stay up-to-date with them more frequently, if I were to delete Whatsapp I would lose that. I have colleagues who are in the same boat with their family and friends not wanting to switch to something else.
 
f33dm3bits said:
You were mentioned peer-to-peer encryption, how does that make Telegram better.


So peer-to-peer is another term for end-to-end?
Click to expand...

It goes from device A to device B without stopping at a server. It's the most secure comm there is. I really like how telegram broke down its comms into 2 tiers: Normal usage is via cloud and distributed to all your devices and peer to peer is device to device only.
I don't know what is more secure, Telegram or Signal, they they latter is also very security-oriented, meaning the algorithms they use and zero meta data they collect.

f33dm3bits said:
Yes there is a reason to use Whatsapp because none of my family members or social contacts are willing to switch to something else because everyone around them uses Whatsapp too. You expect me to cut social contact with family and friends who I don't get to see that often any ways because everyone has busy lives. Whatsapp at least allows me to stay up-to-date with them more frequently, if I were to delete Whatsapp I would lose that. I have colleagues who are in the same boat with their family and friends not wanting to switch to something else.
Click to expand...

Look I am facing the exact same dilemma. I have one or two people who let's just say are not security-conscious whatsoever and I am stuck with it. There are a few old colleagues too who have it and only it and "don't get it". It is a dilemma. You have to decide what's important. Sometimes I get frustrated with idiocy and delete it. Then I go on a trip and reinstall it.

Maybe just pull the plug on it and if they value you, they will reach out to you.
Have you thought about it this way?
As in, here is my telegam nick, @etcetera1234!@#$ and if you want contact, write there.
And if they don't, maybe they don't value you enough? And you shouldn't bein touch with them anyway?

I've had a lot of fake relatives, in the sense that in times of crisis, they are missing. Meaning what's the point at all. Whatsapp is a test, kind of. Delete the damn thing and then see who comes back. Brutal? yeah, but sometimes life requires that.

I suppose whatsapp is better than plain-jane text messages so people who move to whatsapp, there is hope for them that they might move on to something better.

Elon Musk was the greatest salesman for Signal, he twitted a few year ago "Use Signal". When Whatsapp revised its user agreement and added a whole bunch of monitoring stuff in it. He added millions of users to Signal.
 
etcetera said:
Look I am facing the exact same dilemma.
Click to expand...
Good to know, since it was seeming like you were saying that it was that easy.

I have used Threema in the past as well but that's even more of a niche than Signal of those who use it because no phone numbers needed to add contacts, but it's a one time payment for the app.
threema.ch

Open Source – Transparency Matters – Threema

The Threema apps are open source. Find out how to download and compile the source code, and learn more about reproducible builds.
threema.ch threema.ch
threema.ch

Focus on Security and Comprehensive Privacy Protection – Threema

Security, confidentiality, and metadata restraint lie at the heart of Threema, the messenger for individuals and companies.
threema.ch threema.ch
threema.ch

What makes Threema secure?

Threema uses tried-and-tested asymmetric cryptography to protect messages and calls between sender and recipient (and the communication between …
threema.ch threema.ch

For those who still use Whatsapp, I did find a community Linux desktop client, which seems to work well so far.
github.com

GitHub - keshavbhatt/whatsie: Feature rich WhatsApp Client for Desktop Linux

Feature rich WhatsApp Client for Desktop Linux . Contribute to keshavbhatt/whatsie development by creating an account on GitHub.
github.com github.com
 
That's the biggest and only issue with both Telegram and Signal. They both require phone number to register. You know, phone numbers are obsolete. In distant past, punching these numbers did something. Connected the circuits. Now it's all digital. You are assigned an ID anyway. Phone numbers are obsolete and downright stupid. If they went to a nick system, like telegram.

I've heard of Threma but the one I liked, as a non-phone number one, is Wire. It's kind of niche but it does work.

Using a phone number is not all bad, your contacts can find you, like when they join telegram, you get a mesg, xyz joined. Neat. But still, there has to be a better way.
 
etcetera said:
That's the biggest and only issue with both Telegram and Signal.
Click to expand...
signal.org

Keep your phone number private with Signal usernames

Signal’s mission and sole focus is private communication. For years, Signal has kept your messages private, your profile information (like your name and profile photo) private, your contacts private, and your groups private – among much else. Now we’re taking that one step further, by making your...
signal.org signal.org
 
That's right. They say imitation is the sincerest phone of flattery. Signal copied Telegram once again. You can create a nick and then share that nick.
(But you still need the damn thing for registration)

Say you are selling something, or meet someone new but don't want to give our your number to strange people, create a nick and give that. If things go south, just change the nick.
I create catchy ones one can easily remember. Versus some phone number.

That of course presumes the other party has the app as well. Obviously.
 
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